"Falsehood flies, and truth comes limping after it, so that when men come to be undeceived, it is too late; the jest is over, and the tale hath had its effect: [...] like a physician, who hath found out an infallible medicine, after the patient is dead." —Jonathan Swift
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Thanks for admitting to profile stalking I guess?
I spent about 40 seconds clicking on your profile and scrolling through a few comments to make 100% sure it wasn't worth my while to keep arguing with you. Hope that helps. And my point is that I'm done arguing the facts because it's clear you either don't care about them and/or you're woefully incapable of understanding them. I don't know which is worse, but I'm leaning toward the latter.
no actual argument
I've already made the argument; the rest is just a waste of my time. I've given up trying to play pigeon chess. Your conversations with [email protected] and [email protected] show a pattern of being a confidently incorrect moron with no understanding of how anything works and then baselessly accusing people of strawmanning you – when the reality is that what you've said really is just that stupid.
Sorry, I stepped away for a bit. I'm not rebutting a Gish gallop from someone who doesn't understand third-grade English vocabulary and is this confident in their complete illiteracy. Commerce isn't about competition; it's about the exchange of goods and/or services, and you clearly don't know what "exchange" means. I have people who actually speak English I could be talking to instead, so bye.
Also, the level of tone policing going on here is basically this video.
It's a 501 c3 yes, no one is arguing that.
Good. That's a relief for the level of reality-denying yet to come.
It is however very definitely involved in commerce but definition.
The Signal Foundation is (although we're playing fast and loose with "very"). But the Signal Foundation isn't the product or service Signal.
"Nuh uh" and tax documents that day is a 501c3 just mean is non profit
Are you literate? The form 990 wasn't linked to show their status as a 501(c)(3); it was put there so you could examine where they obtain their revenue. I explicitly told you why I linked it, gave you a page number, and even broke it down for you in case you didn't want to look on your own.
and as an fyi being a 501c3 doesn't mean you can't involve yourself in commerce it means the profits derived from it have to go back into the company or a legitimate charitable organization.
CORRECT. I just showed you how the Signal Foundation is involved in commerce through licensing and service fees. Neither the licenses nor the service fees are generated by people using the Signal app.
Correct me if I'm wrong
You are.
but an app is in this case both a product and a service, so what definition are you using to say they aren't involved in commerce when by your own definition they certainly are.
The point of commerce is the EXCHANGE of goods and services. Holy fucking shit you understand this even less than I thought. If an old lady asks me to get her something off the top shelf at the grocery store, I do it, and walk away, I've just performed a service for her. This was done with the understanding that nothing would be given back, and we did not fucking engage in commerce holy shit. The point is that Signal provides the product and service freely, i.e. no exchange takes place.
Ps. Exchange doesn't mean this for that though it can.
???????????????????????? I'm apparently losing my fucking mind. Yes, that is the definition of an exchange. This isn't some technical definition. This is the unambiguous definition that everybody except apparently you uses.
Regardless, you using an app and giving it business and in exchange for a service is commerce.
???????????? WHAT BUSINESS? I'm losing my mind. Is this an argument in bad faith, or can you genuinely not understand these basic concepts? If I walk up to a house on Halloween and take some candy from a plate they've just left out, have I given Mrs. Jenkins from two blocks down my business? There is no business being given to Signal when I download or use their app. End of story.
Hats off if this is bait; you did a really good job.
You looked all that up and neglected the definition of commercial and commerce.
No I didn't, but I knew someone with no idea what they're talking about would insist otherwise without a shred of evidence. Commerce is the voluntary exchange of products and services. If I give you a pig for a goat, we've engaged in commerce. If I give you a toothpick for two dollars, we've engaged in commerce. If I give you some data for money, we've engaged in commerce. If I paint your house so that you redo my shower, we've engaged in commerce.
this one however is actually involved in commerce
Cool story. How?
- The Signal app is free. It's free to be compiled on its own. It's free to be downloaded from the Play Store or the App Store. It's free to be downloaded from their website. It's free to be reused and redistributed and modified by anybody for any purpose at any time. At no point is Signal ever given anything of any tangible value by anybody for a download.
- The Signal app is free to use. No feature of the Signal app is gatekept in a way that would allow you to pay Signal anything of any value to use it.
- Signal's servers are free to use, and it can be self-hosted.
- Signal does not collect any metadata on you in a way that could be worth anything to any commercial interest.
- Signal does not contain advertisements within its application or on its website.
- As the Signal Foundation is a 501(c)(3) non-profit, we can look at its form 990. Part VIII (page 9) breaks down income. 10.12 million was made in licensing fees, 0.14 million made in service revenue (keeping in mind that this can be any service, and it's transparently obvious that Signal doesn't make service revenue; past press releases have indicated that the Signal Foundation helps companies like MS incorporate the Signal Protocol into their messengers, which is likely where this comes from), and 8.4 million gross on selling securities. (I imagine the licensing fees are giving big corps like MS, Facebook, and Google the rights to say they use the Signal Protocol, which while an open standard is likely trademarked by the Signal Foundation. That doesn't make Signal a "commercial app".)
Please enlighten me how this constitutes commerce, because you haven't actually said anything other than "yuh huh". The Signal Foundation engages in commerce, but to say that the protocol or app or service is a commercial product is nonsense that not only has zero evidence but is disprovable.
(Signal isn't a commercial app. It's free as in freedom, free as in beer, and free as in "there's no data kept on you to possibly sell". The Signal Foundation is a 501(c)(3) non-profit, and the Signal app's development and running costs are funded through the Signal Foundation. Please stop using this "commercial app" line.)
A link to the original study so you don't have to take Gizmodo's word on anything related to science.